• lmuel@sopuli.xyz
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    1 month ago

    Ladybird is certainly interesting to watch, it’s improving quite quickly.

    I know people on here hate it because of one (admittedly not at all nice) gender issue in the codes comments but like… seriously?

      • mke@programming.dev
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        3 days ago

        I’ll give my take on it. Something many fail to grasp is that it’s not about a singular thing, you need to look at the context. Let’s go through some of it:

        • Andreas Kling, lead developer of (now-)Ladybird, rejects PR that changes “he” to “they” in documentation.
          • This is the most frequently mentioned example of Andreas’ issues.
          • The “he” in question referred to any user, where “they” is already commonly used instead by everything from companies, to news, to the Linux Kernel docs (an arguably much more important software project).
          • Andreas’ exact words: “This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.”
          • This code was eventually merged 3 years laters in a different PR, this time described as “Grammar fixes” (it changes even more pronouns to gender neutral than the original did).
          • Someone got his attention and tried to explain to him why that’s not cool; he doubled down, assuming the worst from the original contributor.
        • Andreas Kling likes interacting with far-right, queerphobic, or otherwise controversial persons.
        • Other quirky things about Andreas that could be irrelevant in isolation but… please, put the pieces together. I’m begging you, look at the full picture. Is there truly nothing off about all of this?

        Would I look at that PR and say I’m not touching Andreas with a ten-foot pole? Maybe that’s excessive. Would I ignore all the rest and say he’s just misunderstood? Hell no. For all its issues, I do hope Ladybird succeeds as a new browser engine because the internet needs more of those. But I cannot support it until Andreas gets his shit sorted.

        P.P.S. I’m tired, of all this.

        • phlegmy@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          So there’s no issue with Andreas, just some people he’s interacted with before?

          It’s great to hear he doesn’t partake in dehumanising others for their past behaviour/statements :)

          • BaumGeist@lemmy.ml
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            1 month ago

            The issue is that he’s politically polarized into believing that the word “they” is inherently “political.”

            It’s great to hear he doesn’t partake in dehumanising others for their past behaviour/statements

            1. Calling someone out for doing shitty things isn’t “dehumanizing,” you fucking disingenuous hagfish.

            2. All documented behavior is necessarily in the past. Do you mean we must assume he’s changed based on no evidence? Or is their some magical timeframe beyond which certain beliefs must have changed?

            If you’re feeling attacked by people calling out Andreas Kling and Brendan Eich for their irrational prejudice against people who aren’t straight and cis… Good! It means you have enough self-awareness to realize you fit that category too, so now you have the option to change that. Or you already have made that change, but still feel guilty about who you used to be—in which case I, a LGBT, give you permission to stop feeling guilty and move on with your life! Just stop jumping to defend assholes with paperthin excuses that sounded good when they were brought up in their “apolitical” echochambers

            • phlegmy@sh.itjust.works
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              1 month ago

              If you read the commit, you would see it was referring to a built-in non-human account.
              In no way did he assume the gender of any people, so who cares if he referred to a built-in account of his operaring system as ‘he’ instead of ‘they’?
              A more accurate description would have been ‘it’.

              As somebody who also identifies as LGBT, I don’t want or need your permission to feel anything.
              I don’t feel guilty for not participating in the cancel culture of the internet.

              • BaumGeist@lemmy.ml
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                1 month ago

                I did read the commit, and I loved the part where Andreas Kling said:

                This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.

                As his reason for dismissing it. Because the commiter was trying to use idiomatic language for a builtin account. But it must be “politics” because pronouns amirite.

                That also ignores all the other points brought up about his questionable values.

                I don’t feel guilty for not participating in the cancel culture of the internet.

                There is no such thing as cancel culture. This is what the Free Marketplace of ideas allows: “your ideas are shit and I won’t support you and I will let others know.” That’s not “cancel culture,” that’s just how society fucking deals with toxic ideas that harm communities.

                As somebody who also identifies as LGBT

                Then put the bare fucking minimum into acting like you’re part of a marginalized community, and stop rushing to defend online chuds who support that marginalization from being critiqued. Seriously weird simp behavior.

                • phlegmy@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 month ago

                  Sure. Lets just ignore ladybird/serenity and the positive impact Andreas is making because he didn’t accept a commit that changed a pronoun for a system account on the operating system he wrote from a ‘he’ to a ‘they’.

                  And lets ignore that it’s been changed since. People ‘never’ change, so lets fuck up their entire career and public image for life.

                  Yeah no thanks.

                  If you think that comment outweighs all the positive impacts Andreas is making, that’s your prerogative. I’m not interested in holding everyone up to such high expectations.

                  If that makes me a simp in your eyes, so be it.

  • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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    1 month ago

    I’m not sure I have a lot of faith in Servo but we are in need of anything better than Gecko. Ladybird is the new one on the block and we will see if it goes anywhere. I like that Ladybird it’s own web browser.

    • shortrounddev@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      Ladybird seems almost singularly focused on macOS development. They say that they intend to incrementally move from C++ to Swift

    • Hellfire103@lemmy.caOP
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      1 month ago

      Going from lawful to chaotic, good to evil, we have:

      • Gecko (Firefox, Seamonkey, and derivatives)
      • Servo
      • Libweb (Ladybird)
      • Links2 (as well as ELinks and other forks)
      • WebKit (used in a lot of stuff, namely Safari and GNOME Web)
      • Goanna (Pale Moon and Basilisk)
      • QtWebEngine (Konqueror, Falkon, and qutebrowser)
      • Blink (Chromium, Brave, and derivatives)
      • Trident (Internet Explorer, old versions of Maxthon, old versions of Avant, and any homemade browser created with Visual Studio).
          • Midnight Wolf@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            What’s going on? I’ve seen this new browser engine referenced recently a decent bit but I have no info beyond ‘it’s new and exists’.

            • The Quuuuuill@slrpnk.net
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              1 month ago

              the lead dev is a freeze peach absolutist. he’s said some ignorant shit about trans people and when people said “hey, let’s adjust this language” he was like “let’s not get political”

                • The Quuuuuill@slrpnk.net
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                  1 month ago

                  the ladybird dev wants to work with people who want me dead. so. yeah, fuck him. mozilla ain’t great, but they’re the least dangerous engine builders right now. servo would be a better engine for us to rally around, but everyone would rather talk about the less mature, more fascist accepting, project.

                  nazis are bad. that’s the hill i’m willing to die on. this is bigger than a browser engine.

      • 2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de
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        1 month ago

        Huh, I didn’t know MSHTML as used in IE was also called Trident. I thought Trident was specifically early Edge before they switched to Blink.

    • rtxn@lemmy.worldM
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      1 month ago

      People are losing their shit, calling for boycotts, and throwing around accusations of transphobia over comments in the source code and a single line of documentation? Seriously? And brigading the developer three years after the fact‽ I was ready to write off Ladybird, but damn, this was taken way out of proportion.

      I’m all in for equal treatment, but people need to get a perspective. Such an extreme reaction will ultimately hurt the cause they’re trying to advocate for. Getting bent out of shape and publicly brigading something for every perceived slight, every time someone’s feelings are hurt, or can’t get their way, will get them – and the demographic or movement they represent – labelled as undesirable.

      • mke@programming.dev
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        1 month ago

        A single line of documentation? How about looking into some context? Hurt feelings my ass, Andreas isn’t some innocent, silly little guy who never does anything questionable.

        And which cause exactly are you talking about? Because I don’t know about you, but I’ll stand for real, marginalized people over lines of code on a screen any day.

        • coldsideofyourpillow@lemmy.cafe
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          25 days ago

          Thanks for sharing that linked comment. I knew there were other things that weren’t as talked about, but I didn’t have the energy to look into them and draft a comprehensive insight with citations.

          • mke@programming.dev
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            25 days ago

            Whenever I post such things, I get a small wave of displeased people. Rarely get thanks, though. Even if it takes a bit of effort, and I inevitably find yet more stuff. That’s ok, praise obviously isn’t the point.

            But it demoralized me a little, how there’s always downplaying. It’s never enough. I can say Brendan Eich is homophobic, ideally you shouldn’t support him, and someone will tell me he invented javascript, and that makes it ok (my entire point is thus null, I am overreacting).

            Your thanks encourage me to uselessly annoy and present no arguments a bit longer. Thank you.

      • りん〜@sopuli.xyz
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        1 month ago

        This is why I hate the FOSS community. Everyone freaks out and cries wolf the second a platform doesn’t share their political opinion, even if it’s completely irrelevant to privacy or FOSS.

        • kekmacska@lemmy.zip
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          1 month ago

          Foss certainly aligns better with left-wing philosophies, i don’t think far-right need to be widely accepted in these communities

          • りん〜@sopuli.xyz
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            1 month ago

            Calling someone far-right for not wanting to implement a useless pronouns feature is a bit wild.

            • kekmacska@lemmy.zip
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              1 month ago

              Not necessarily far right, but that implies they might be far right. i think if someone is cis female, her, if cis male then he, if other, they (unless something else is explicitly stated). I don’t think it really hurts anyone to call them the way they wish, but rightists usually do